This Issue is Sponsored by

Bristol Business Solutions

Bristol Business Solutions

Bristol Business Solutions (BBS) is a small, independent company here to support your growing business. With over 6 years experience of working with small businesses, BBS provides an affordable solution to your administrative, budgeting, marketing, and website needs.


On this episode of The Truth about Massage Therapy Podcast, Krzys interview Jane Johnson

BHP010 – What is a physiotherapy? And how they help clients?

Jane has a passion for helping students and newly qualified massage therapists gain confidence in using common assessment and treatment methods. She is the author of Postural Assessment, Postural Correction, Soft Tissue Release, Deep Tissue Massage, Therapeutic Stretching and The Big Back Book: Tips & Tricks for Therapists. Jane has had what is called a ‘portfolio’ career, combining different passions in order to provide herself with an income: In the last 25 years, she has worked as a massage therapist, physiotherapist, fitness instructor and teacher of anatomy and physiology, swapping and varying these roles between part-time and full-time. For many years she worked for a publishing company, helping to create medical reference books, during which time she gained a masters degree in health and exercise behaviour.

Today, Jane continues to embrace a portfolio career: she is currently half way through studying for a PhD at Teesside University, continues to work as a physiotherapist, providing weekly telephone consultations for an occupational health provider, as well as providing expert witness reports for cases involving massage and physiotherapy.


Favourite Quote:

“Anything’s possible”,

Tag a Guest Game:

Doreen Uzice and Dympna O’Brien from Quantum Metta

Links mentioned in this episode:

Jane Johnson Books (Amazon):
Jane Johnson Books:
Jane Johnson Videos:
Jane Johnson Workshops:

       Share this on your Facebook with one Click 

Share this on your Twitter with one Click


Wow! So welcome Jane and thank you for joining me here at Busy Hive Podcast.

JANE:                       Thank you Krzys.

KRZYS:                    And you still study and you still doing PhD. Wow! How amazing!

JANE:                       Thank you. I’m an eternal learner, I can’t help myself.

KRZYS:                    But that’s, you know, that’s in our industry of course you know. When I went into the massage is like in ocean of knowledge and the direction you can go and this never end. That’s what’s amazing about it.

JANE:                       Yes it is now. And when I trained which was many, many years ago in massage, we didn’t have that opportunity. There were Massage Training schools but you didn’t have these continuing professional development courses so you didn’t have C.P.D. courses. I think in America they call them CE courses, so that those weren’t around and it was really hard to kind of branch out into extra things but fortunately there’s a lot more opportunity like you say now.

KRZYS:                    Amazing! So here at Busy Hive we like to start every show with our guest favorite quote. It’s kind of way to get everybody motivated and excited for the rest of the show. So can you tell us what’s your favourite quote and why?

JANE:                       Well my favourite quote is “Anything’s possible”, I don’t know where it comes from, if I just made it up or someone else made it up but I think if you go, like if I go through my life thinking anything’s possible then anything’s possible.


KRZYS:                     And from it from, from this what I read, you know, what do you do this, you’ve definitely the done this.

JANE:                         I have yeah, as you rightly discovered I’ve had this portfolio career and I never knew what that was my American friend, I’ve got a good American friend and she said oh that’s really common in America it’s a kind of a posh way of saying that you, you do lots of different things. and it wasn’t by design that that happened I have just ended up following all of my passions and managed to earn an income doing lots of different, different things all of which I love.

KRZYS:                     So let’s come to your, let’s talk about little bit more about your career. So here at Busy Hive we really focus on the beginnings of the journey because we can learn a lot from, from, from the beginning exactly. So can you tell us how did you get started and how did you get to the point where you are at today?

JANE:                         Well when I was at school I was always very interested in sciences but I struggled in the school that I was in and I didn’t do very well. and in the U.K. usually you sort of can leave school or used to about to leave school when you’re sixteen or you could go on and take what were called A levels you know, when you when you’re eighteen and then perhaps go to university or leave and go to work. And there were there were problems with the A Levels that I was wanting to take which was sort of in zoology, in human biology and those kinds of things, cause they all clashed with each other. So I think my parents thought well I’m never going to get A Levels this why so I left and started a Business Studies course. I was only fifteen with lots of other adults and I did Business Studies for a couple of years which I didn’t particularly enjoy I have to say but it sort of kept me off the streets. But I was always really interested in sort of Human Biology and how people live and that kind of thing and so I sort of then eventually trained as a Fitness Instructor because I became very overweight. I got a job I was I was in a shop that was next to a bakery (Laughter) so lunch time we all use to go around and eat cakes you know, all the girls in the shop we do, we do go out and eat cakes and stuff. And so I put on lots of weight and I wanted to lose weight and I kept going to exercise classes and I tried all sorts of things and I couldn’t lose weight and I, I   didn’t know why. so I eventually got, we tried training as a Fitness Instructor. I’m going to work out, I have to lose weight so I, I think I was the only overweight student at the Y.M.C.A. in London when they were running courses there. Sort of Fitness Instructor courses so they were people from the R.A.F. you know, the Royal Air Force, Aerobics Instructors and all these really fit, super fit people running around and I was kind of sweating and had the highest you know, pulse rate and then any of them but I learnt, I was trained in all of the aerobics sort of skills as well as all the free weights and multi gym so I did that entire course and I what I discovered was I’ve found myself saying I could do this a lot better than some of those other Instructors. You know people like me who were marginalized that were overweight and didn’t manage to lose weight you know, there’s a, there’s a, a place for them in gyms but all these years ago and this is a really long time ago sort of over twenty five years ago, gyms weren’t quite as inclusive as they are now. (Yes) so nowadays it’s you know gyms embraced helping all sorts of people don’t they? But in those days they seem to just be full of people in Lycra who already seem to be really fit you know and I thought well I can do better, and I actually got a job as a Fitness Instructor and a Personal Trainer,   for a company for corporate clients and I did that for quite a long time but I got to the point where I thought I don’t want to get up, you know at five o’clock in the morning and run around Hyde Park in central London and it’s not minus two degrees. (Laughter) I just don’t enjoy this you know? (Laughter) (Yeah) I love helping people and love giving them advice but I didn’t actually want to do all that physical training and I had lost a lot of weight by then I was pretty fit myself and I didn’t need to do to do that. So one thing I was still interested in was massage cause people kept asking me, “Do you know good massage therapists?” And again you see back then, there weren’t many Massage Therapists that there are now. It was a much smaller kind of community a much smaller profession. so I trained in massage and I found it was quite frustrating cause when people came with sports injuries I didn’t how to treat them so then I trained in Sports Massage cause that was kind of the next best thing so not necessarily with the injuries, although there are now in the Sports Massage Courses and I really love that and I did that alongside the Fitness Instruction for quite a long time. But then again I think a lot of people I just kept on wanting to learn more and I thought well I’d like to be a Physio because they must have all the answers (Laughter) you know, because I don’t have the answers maybe they know have to train, you know how to help sprained ankles and people with cardiovascular problems and, and this kind of thing. But I couldn’t I get in. I couldn’t, I couldn’t train because I didn’t have A Levels. (yeah) Cause I’d left so young and so I, I tried for or universities in and around London for four years and I got rejected by all of those. I got rejected sixteen times. I just, I just thought after the, the last rejection I thought you know maybe I’m just not going to be a Physio. But I really wanted to and I thought, I’m going to be really good at this, like I know I can do this if someone just see my potential. (Everything is possible) Yeah, anything’s possible and I kept saying that and I didn’t believe it as much back then but I’m really lucky that I’m, I think I’m a natural optimist. I’m naturally positive and that that stood in my favor.

And then you know just a couple of life changes, I was married at the time, I had a baby, husband left (Snicker) so I found myself as a single parent with this two year old and then I got offered a place at King Halls to do Physiotherapy and I thought, “oh, how am I going to do this?” You know, single parent, I’ve got a two year old son but, but I did. You know, there was a local nursery I had to pay then, you know the nurseries weren’t free; I had to pay for nursery so I had to work at the weekends.

KRZYS:                     Well they are not, still not free!

JANE:                         No lost me, yeah, you have to pay don’t you?

KRZYS:                     I’m a parent as well so, yeah.

JANE:                         Oh, yes you know what it’s like for sure. And it was really expensive although all of the money I was earning on weekends but at that point I started teaching Anatomy, being asked to teach Anatomy for companies that taught massage. Because of course I could put the anatomy in context for the Massage Therapists because I…

KRZYS:                     That’s the best way to learn teach someone so that was pretty helpful.

JANE:                         Yeah, isn’t it? Yeah and, and things developed from there. I, I realized after my, my Physio Course that, Physios don’t have all the answers. I think I have to, I should tell listeners that between being a Fitness Instructor and a Massage Therapist, and becoming a Physio, I did actually take a Master’s Degree so I did it the other way round. Usually you do a Degree then you do your Master’s don’t you? but I actually was accepted onto a Master’s Course first, which was in health and exercise behavior so I looked a lot of how people exercise across their, their lifespan and the barriers that they face. (Yeah) And the sorts of barriers we impose on ourselves and I love that. It was a very high element of physiology in it but also the sort of psychological element so I think that’s probably, what swayed me getting into Kings you know, because I had gotten a higher level qualification by that time but you know it doesn’t make the point that I didn’t have A Levels but I managed to get into a Master’s Degree; which you’re supposed to not be able to get on until you’ve even got a degree so you know anything’s possible! (Anything’s possible, yes) And I’ve now ended up you know do work as a Massage Therapist and Sports and stuff for years, Physio for a long time but there were a lot of challenges. I know you’re going to ask me about those later that were actually to do with it both Massage and Physio but I’ve ended up in a in a situation now where like you say it’s a portfolio career, it’s a bit of everything. I I’m doing a PhD which is, is challenging but really interesting and I provide my telephone consultations for a company that delivers Occupational Health Physiotherapy. So they have contracts with lots of N.H.S. Trusts so my patients are all other Physios, Nurses, Doctors, Paramedics you know, all of the health staff that work in hospitals. You know Dentists, Anesthetists, everything. And I have telephone consultations booked in with me every week and we give advice to those people as employees and I’m passionate about it I mean I love it. And you can, I think you can do really good work you don’t have to as you’re proving with these podcasts, you don’t have to have someone in front of you to inspire them or impart knowledge you know or really help them, support them help them feel supported. And that’s where I am now.

KRZYS:                     That’s just amazing story but let’s talk about, you talk about your studies and everything but you wrote a lot of books. You’re like studying, busying, learning. Where did you have the time to wrote, write those books?

JANE:                         Yeah! Well is that interesting isn’t it? And it was this time, and I think there’s so much free time in our lives if we free ourselves up from it I don’t have television I gave up watching T.V. years and years ago maybe (same here) ten years, (don’t have it) ten years ago yeah time yeah (don’t have the time) Yeah, exactly and I, I pick up new snippets and things that happened you know they come straight on social media don’t they? But some people say they feel, they need it to relax but what I found is I love reading and I wanted to get through lots of the books I’ve got that I was passionate about you know so of course the TV went. But in terms of the books again the same thing I, I was part of a sort of team and we used to get together on a monthly and sort of think about how we all could earn money collectively. You know what could we do together to help us increase our income and we thought of lots of different things and a couple of them for other members of the team panned out. I wasn’t involved in those just because I was busy with other things but I kind of decided at that time that I got some really great tips I picked up over the years and I wanted to share them with people and I couldn’t find books to support me as a Therapist and again now there are lots back then they just weren’t any. There were very few, there was a handful a merely six books you know and I thought, well, actually that doesn’t really work for me but if you do like this that works better. And I thought well, maybe I’ll just write those books and I just remember writing a piece of paper and said to myself, I’m going to write five books in five years because that was the amount of knowledge I felt that it would take five books to you know to fill.

KRZYS:                     Yeah.

JANE:                         And if I could’ve done in one I would’ve done it in one but I quite like the idea of keeping it simple. They’re very specific there are on one particular topic, you can just get that one topic if, if that’s what you want to increase your skill in. Do you know what I mean? I like that those kind of books work for me they’re not great big tons, they’re easy to carry around. And I just set myself that goal and I just did it.

KRZYS:                     And you did it.

JANE:                         And I know it’s, it’s sometimes you know raises a few eyebrows but I used to have that Nike tick on my desk, you know, just do it?

KRZYS:                     Yeah!

JANE:                        And if I was procrastinating I’d just see that and say “you know go on, get off your butt Jane. Go do it! (Laughter)

KRZYS:                     That, (Laughter) that you know I, I have a completely different a different one, always when I have like in front or in here you can see it but it’s like I don’t said get this shit done!

JANE:                         Yeah, yeah, absolutely!

KRZYS:                     Just go and do it!

JANE:                         Just get it done!

KRZYS:                     But that, this is, that’s from you, how I, you how I found out about you and learn about you, we hearts when I finish my holistic course and the end of the, well there were a lot of books in a library you can buy and purchase and at the end of the holistic course we’ve done just a little bit of the Postural Analysis. (Oh yeah) And it was just not it’s completely not enough for me because my idea was to become Massage and sports, a Remedial and Sports Massage Therapist. But to do that I didn’t have any background of Anatomy and Physiology so they advised me, to do the holistic one, cause that was Level, Level Four and (yeah) you will learn lots of stuff and then this will take you to the Level Five. I was like “oh, okay!” if you know, holistic, the fluffy stuff and playing music (Yeah) which I find was completely different things and seriously I’m thank… I’m very thankful now I did that before because you need different approach and different idea out and you know I learned touch itself. And I came and I just came across your book. It’s like, that’s what I need and obviously we you know in the sport re, remedial book that’s what we base lots of studies, lots of cases from your book.

JANE:                        Oh, thank you!

KRZYS:                     That’s why I find out for years so when, when I find out you coming to our M.T.I. Conference, (Oh yes) I’m going to meet you! (Laughter) I’m going on your course.

JANE:                         Well that, sorry that, that book came about because I used to get asked when I was teaching Anatomy I used to get asked a lot by the Therapists on the course they were training you know, to be Massage and, Sports, Sports Therapists. And they’d asked me, “Did I teach any workshops?” So we then developed a series of workshops that would specifically for them, for students and for people just graduated as Massage Therapists and one of the topics that was really commonly asked about was Postural Assessment. And of course I learned that as a Physio and some of the companies I’d work for it was actually mandatory and what I found really interesting now is that the research I’m doing for part of the PhD is funded by the Royal College of Chiropractors, partly funded by them, partly funded by Teesside University because they want to determine whether there is a relationship between posture and pain. Now they’re talking about looking at a scientific level not, not anecdotally (Yeah) and a lot of Therapists I’ve met would say there’s definitely a relationship, but one of the issues we have is that as you might know when you assess posture, that is very subjective. So if you assess someone, I assess them…

KRZYS:                     To each person.

JANE:                         Yeah, we might not see the same things so it’s very difficult to record that in an objective way. And yes you can use body diagrams and things but we can’t share that information and again this is something we probably have got time for in this podcast but I’m really passionate about sharing information and how we use that to inform our practice. And if we can collect information about posture, then that will you know, really form our practice. And so hopefully that book or still be current when I finish the PhD if what, does whatever we discover, whether posture is you know, relates to pain or not. But you know it was done in a very step by step way and it came out of what Therapists did and that was the same with the other books that, that was what they asked me about. You know, can you write a book about this, can you do a workshop on it?

KRZYS:                     And even posture for me it’s quite really good. Well I found it as a posture to give me, give me a lot of, well give us a lot of tips and information to find out you know, how the, using their body or what’s, what’s, what’s not moving or what’s moving better, what’s you know, where we need to do our work. But the most important for me what I discovered, is actually, when I do not actually I’m showing my clients this and you know and then we do new treatment and we reassess and they see the difference cause in many, many, many, many options and times is that actually clients you know have a treatment session and actually they doesn’t feel, you know they have a goal they want to get better, but they (Yes, yeah) don’t see any change. They don’t feel any better but actually, well you can move better, your range of motion is better, you can turn the head you know, easier than before and by doing those things, they actually they can see the change should they see they actually see that the treatments working and you’re good at this what you’re doing and these you know we’re actually helping them.

JANE:                         Well one thing I found you know as a Practitioner, you know as a Clinician, is that people are really interested in posture most of the time. You know most people they get poor posture so they’ll come in and say, if you say to them, “Would it be okay for me to have a look at your posture or to see how you standing? I’m just checking for symmetry and that kind of thing.” And you tell them why you might want to look for those kinds of things. They really interested and they often want to say “what have you found?” you know, “What do know this, did you see that?” You know, they just generally the public have a real interest in it and you know it’s something I think unfortunately there is not a lot of scientific evidence to support there being a relationship between posture and pain but I would argue that, that evidence hasn’t yet collected. What therapist such as Massage Therapists, Sports Massage Therapists, Physiotherapists, Chiropractors, Osteopaths, you know their information their knowledge it’s not yet probably properly collected that. And I agree with you, you see changes in people’s posture that you can see visually you know, from before the treatment to after the treatment. You know and they can feel it. Can’t they? They stand up straighter; you can measure them all sorts of things. Yeah!

KRZYS:                     And you know this is a subject we can go on and go on go on (that’s true) and I think you know what it will be a lot, another hour conversation (it would, yes!) so let’s bring on. But now in your mind can you share with us one of the challenges as a new Therapist?

JANE:                         Well as a new Massage Therapist, I, I remember feeling quite isolated because there weren’t really clinics that you could work in like there are now and again I think a lot of Massage Therapists work on their own. Don’t they? Some are very lucky and they work in teams or they work in other clinics or alongside Physios, Osteopaths and Chiropractors but that’s not common in the U.K. So that was quite isolating but I would say that my, my biggest challenge was when I was a Physiotherapist and sort of a fairly new graduate there and got an enormous sort of background prior to training in Physio you know, as a in other therapies you know so I would already been working with people, I was then used to that, I was used to giving advice in a very safe way, helping to inform them about things but I thought, oh my God, people are going to think I’m a fraud. I, I didn’t particularly want to work in the, the N.H.S. I’d done some work there in a whole range of capacities and I didn’t really enjoy that aspect so I was in the private sector as a Locum Physio and I thought, I don’t know if I going to get any work you know, you know, how you know how he’s going to give me a job and actually, I, I just after I don’t know, six months of feeling very in secure I said you know what, just like with the books where I said I’m going to write five cooks in five years, I said you know I’m going to do ten Locum jobs in ten months. That’s what I’m going to do or let’s make it a year and Locum jobs can last for a few days, a few weeks, a few months. So usually you’re dropped into a position where they’re covering because I haven’t got permanent Physiotherapists and I love that. So you try and go and you do really good work, you leave, you don’t leave any problems for them to resolve you know when they come back. You’re trying to prove things if you can while you’re there. And I was just so nervous so when agencies were ringing me up. Obviously I may have worked during my (Inaudible 22:52) I didn’t take on jobs that couldn’t do and I had to turn a lot down because it’s a lot of work for Locum Physios, I mean a lot. But I just ended up all over the London and outskirts of London and getting on trains and doing the jobs that nobody loved but it was really beneficial and I learned from it. And what I learnt was that I, I discovered an area Physio that I would never have discovered if I hadn’t done that.

KRZYS:                     Which is?

JANE:                         It’s Occupational Health Physiotherapy So it’s a special section of Musculoskeletal Physiotherapy. (Inaudible 23:27) And what Occupation Health Physios do is we work with people who are trying getting back to work if they’re, if they’re unwell, if they have injuries or or, long term conditions, or we help keep them at work if they’re suffering problems. Musculoskeletal problems or we try and give them advice if they’re about to go off work to have a planned operation for example and the key thing is that you work with the employer as well so you have to write a lot of reports obviously with the permission of the patient. and this is one of the big differences you know between Massage Therapy, Sports Massage Therapy and Physio is that in my capacity, I have to write to the employers and give them advice as well so I have a duty of care to the patient you know first and foremost but then I also have this duty of care in a way to the employer to get an adequate advice cause they want to know should they, is that person fit to stay and work. You know are we doing anything that’s going to make them unwell? Should we modify duties? You have to be really creative and think about different things so yes so it led me down the path I would never have discovered that work. Is just Locum agencies couldn’t fill those positions because there’s not many Physios that do that and you often end up dealing with unusual jobs and people in jobs that other people you know, people who clean up refuse, you know, bins and stuff. Who wants to work with them? Well I do because I love working with everybody. (Laughter)

KRZYS:                     That’s amazing and that that’s where you started it and that’s going to lead us to another question. So now we have reached you know my favourite part, when we you know enter the part when we choose the topic of the conversation which always relates to work of our guests And we will start of a few questions and you know today’s topic is, What is Physiotherapy? Who is Physio? So let’s talking and bring some ideas to Massage Therapists. What is it Physiotherapy?

JANE:                         Well Physiotherapy grew out of massage and medical gymnastics. There was a charter, a world charter…

KRZYS:                     Medical gym, medical gymnastics?

JANE:                         Yeah! Physiotherapists used to be called the Chartered Society of Massage and Medical Gymnastics because there were four pillars to physiotherapy in the U.K. That’s massage, exercise in movement electrotherapy and then sort of methods that are kindred to that, methods that are aligned to those things. So those are the pillars so massage was one of the main pillars of Physiotherapy and I thought it quite interesting cause there was a, somebody asked a question on a physiotherapy chat room. So when you said you’re in the U.K., you can go in a whole variety of chat rooms. It’s fantastic and you can ask all sorts of questions and you get lots of support from other physiotherapists and it could be very simple about on trying to rehabilitate this person’s elbows and it’s not working, have you got any ideas? Or it could be a general question about the profession. and someone asked a question about the use of massage and it completely divided the profession. there was, I think the Chartered Society of Physiotherapy got more responses to that question than almost any other question and it was actually written about in a magazine called Frontline, and it divided the profession because half of them, perhaps the more mature Physios who trained in massage as part of their training, we’re talking about very mature Physios cause it’s not a big part of Physio courses now. They had done a lot of massage training as part of their (right) original Physiotherapy Degree, yes and they used it a lot and they found it was very valuable and they said it’s one of our pillars we have to support it but then there were much more perhaps more newly qualified Physios. Many of whom hadn’t come from massage background who felt that it completely alienates us from the medical profession and it’s using the word massage sort of somehow degrades us and they didn’t want to be associated with it, they don’t want to have it discussed, they think it’s not valuable. You know what I mean? (I do, yes) And I found that really interesting because coming, coming from a massage background I already found it valuable so I didn’t need to buy into that. I’d seen the benefits and the improved outcomes that have to people but that’s what, that’s what Physio is, it’s really using physicality to help people improve. You know, that not just the massage but the exercise and movement and again there’s, there’s a debate about electrotherapy but there’s a very good website that people can look at by someone called Tim Watson. And he has a website all about Electrotherapies and he looks at the research into the use of Electrotherapy and it’s not something that I, see it’s not that it doesn’t sit well with me but I’m much more exercise advice, when it does you know, and helping people in that way. But it does have a really significant place for people and I know in sports injuries and sports rehabilitation it’s widely used you know so I think there’s a confusion amongst non Physios about what Physio is actually about.

KRZYS:                     Okay. Well, Electrotherapy I know the idea. Well like everything else some things work for some people, some things work for you know, is just you know, I think electro, electrotherapies only were used in a sport injuries just because have a really good effect on this one. You wouldn’t use anything you know on anything else. So can you tell us how to become Physio? You already, you’re already said how you tried it and you know they didn’t took you on. So what…

JANE:                         Well again yeah! I, I, it’s interesting because I’ve, I’ve recently, well it happens a lot but I more recently it’s been a few people contact me who are Massage Therapists of various capacities. So they could be a Massage Therapist, a Sports Massage Therapist and they want to become a Physiotherapist or a Chiropractor or an Osteopath and I often get asked advice about it and I would say just keep trying. And look at the breadth of Physiotherapy because that what happens is the people contact me think that because they’ve done Sports Massage, they can then do Physio because they happen to have met some Physios that they’re better than. But it’s actually an enormous field! It isn’t just about musculoskeletal treatment the physiotherapy is huge. It covers you know respiratory care, women’s health, men’s health, you know we’re talking about sort of genital urinary health that kind of thing, it covers Pediatrics, you know, neurology all kinds of neurological disorders, brain injuries lots of Physios work in Cardiology and they look at people with cardiovascular problems and so there are specialisms within Physiotherapy. And you know there’s something for everyone and I would say just keep trying. Look at what the coun… the universities; look at what they’re looking for. Look at the breadth of the course because if you go in saying you know I want to, I think I’m a great Physio because I’m a Sports Masseur and I’m better than the team Physio. You’re not going to gain cause they want you to show that you actually understand the breadths that’s going to be a very minor part of your overall course. You know, and again that’s something we can talk about. Why, why those impressions about Physios have, have come about. But I just you know it’s not mean anything’s possible, if you want to do it do it! There’s never a good time you know, I did as a single parent with a two year old.

KRZYS:                     After four years of trying.

JANE:                         Yeah I tried for four years, I got sixteen rejections you know and anything’s possible. You just got to put yourself out there and if you think you can do it then do it. And again I was contacted I think at the like the end of last year early this year by someone who had a colleague from abroad who was really trying and I think the gentleman was from Iran and he really wants to become Physiotherapist, he works he read a lot, you know he seem to be incredibly skilled and they seem to be a barrier there and I don’t know if it was to do with the English language barrier but you could argue there might have been a political barrier. We don’t know but he was really trying and he tried lots of different things and he’s been rejected by lots of universities but my advice was the same thing; just get, get clarity from them as to why you were rejected and then focus on (to correct that) you know addressing that, to correct that, yeah! So it’s really important isn’t it? If you don’t get in ask. And that’s something I didn’t do and I should have done. I didn’t ask why I didn’t get in; it could’ve been just because the blanket rule is you had to have A Levels. But I should have asked that question so you know I asked the question and I assume you will get in. You know hope for the best and maybe you will.

KRZYS:                     Are there yeah, kind of examples cause one of my colleagues I studied Sports Remedial Massage, she, she wanted to become Physio but yes she applied and she and our, our qualification is a Level Five okay so it’s quite sufficient even higher (Yeah) than that he expected but she still didn’t, she still didn’t get through because they didn’t recognize this qualification (Yeah) as sufficient so she had, but you know she does, she had to do the, I think she finished really the first year of I think is the support level, okay.

JANE:                         Yes I understand what you’re saying, is the preliminary course before going in.

KRZYS                       Before you start, start in this one and she done this first year and she’s done really, really well and the next year she started Physio so it’s possible.

JANE:                         Yeah those courses are available and they called Access Courses I think now, aren’t they? Is that their name? So you have Access Courses in the Arts but you have Access Courses for Science and Medicine. So you would do the Science and Medicine you want. So they cover a broad range of topics and again I know people who’ve done that and I actually know some who go into medical school without A Levels by doing an Access Course. So that is a possibility and again one of the things I see, interesting that I hear from lots of people that they want to be Physio but they don’t want to do the work involved. You know they don’t want to work for three years full time as a Physio without an income if they’ve been working as a Sports Massage Therapist and they’ve got a nice base of clients. There are courses now where you can do Physiotherapy part time. (Part-time, yes) And in some cases you can go straight to a Master’s Degree in Physio instead of become chartered. So those opportunities are available because they recognize that we need to recruit a wider section of the population. But I, I think it’s a real value and I would do it again, you know in giving up work and working for three years because you learn so many fascinating things and a thousand hours of that time is clinical practice. You know and if you’re, the advantage I think maybe your listeners have is that if you are a therapist already you can work evenings and you can work weekends, which is what I had to do. Albeit mine was some Sports Massage but the majority was Anatomy Teaching you know what I mean? There are opportunities because you’ve already built those clients up and my experience is that most clients are very excited by you doing additional training and they will become accommodating to you, you know?

KRZYS:                     And they want to try and this is the perfect way if you know you learn something new you try this on, on your clients so it gives you additional practice.

JANE:                         Yes absolutely and again another point just to make is that as you know in the U.K. we were an aging population so the percentage of older people is increasing relative to younger people. So people being recruited for Physiotherapy Degrees or Assessed Physiotherapy Degrees need to be able to show that they understand that and that the majority of work Physiotherapists is actually going to come from treating older adults in the future; so that there’s a specific group of Physios you know that look at the problems specific to elders. You know a balance issues and that kind of thing so they need to be able to embrace that and think about that they don’t want to take people on that necessarily I only want to work with sports people, I only work with you know this group of people because the work is actually going to be mostly with older adults and that’s a fact you know.

KRZYS:                     And that’s, that’s I always, I always laugh, well not laugh, laugh at myself because when I decide I want to go into the massage world, I always say, “I want to be remedial in sports, I want to do sport, I’ll be sport massage. (Yeah) and I was like, “oh no I need to do this holistic stuff,” And it’s like you know that’s taught me something different. When I finish this course, I want to do something different and I’d done the Sport Remedial. (Yes) That was interesting and I discovered different things and then I started working with Physio in a Nuerophysio Clinic and I start. That’s took me completely different working with neurological disorder, (Yes) the spinal injuries (Yes) completely out of the word but that knowledge comp, really, really helped me to work with this one. So you know you probably have idea (Laughter) (Yeah) but the same, the same like when you know you finish your course and you just want to help everyone. (You do) Then you slowly kind of find out what would you really enjoy (That’s right) and would you really like treating and what you are actually good at treating (Yes) and you know you following that. I think remember as we were talking on the on a conference you specialize in something instead of just doing…

JANE:                         Oh yes! Well I, I, I’m, I’m, I’m a Musculoskeletal Physio but I specialize in occupational health so if you go to a hospital and you have an injury or something or you, you know sprain your ankle you fall over whatever, you should get sent to an Outpatient Department so you meet Musculoskeletal Physiotherapists who treat people every twenty minutes they have a new patient and have a very busy day one after the other eighteen patients a day, twenty four patients a day, lots and lots and lots. And I did that kind of work and I also worked intensively in a whiplash clinic for people who had whiplash every patient I saw had whiplash. So I got really good at treating necks but then the area that I’ve ended up specializing in is in, in order to do with work and the kind of jobs that people do and of course that very varied and so I end up asking people all sorts of questions about they work and how they do their work. So for example I got sent up in a cherry picker, you know these devices for changing light bulbs on street lamps, these huge crane things? (Yes, yes) I got sent up in one of those because I was working with people who had to repair them so I want to see what sort of injuries they have so of course it’s a little winter and the company thought, it’s great we’ll send Jane up in a cherry picker (Laughter) and it’s not blowing a gale and I’m strapped up in a harness and protective clothing and actually terrified, like a hundred twenty feet in the air but I also went inside a wind turbine you know.

KRZYS:                     Did they let you change the light bulbs?

JANE:                         No, certainly not. But yeah I went inside a wind turbine and I also saw the technicians who have to work down holes. They have to work in very small spaces repairing, you know when you have a problem in the road and you have to dig the road up and it’s full of water and electrical pipes and wires and stuff. And I had to work with them so that’s where I ended up and it’s one of the bits of advice I might give to, to other Therapists which is that find what you’re passionate about and get good at that one thing. Some people try and be masters of everything. But I found that I was really lucky to have found you know my passion and so I tend to not take on work that’s outside of that now. It tends to need to have an occupational element cause I love it you know, I love it’s like when your Massage Therapist isn’t it? You try and work at what’s the problem. You know so I go to see men who are using spray guns to take graffiti off the wall and they got shoulder pain. I think well why they got shoulder pain because you’re using a vibrating hydraulic device for eight hours a day and it’s vibrating your shoulder and it’s hurting thumb. You know that kind of thing. And I think to some extent Massage Therapists missed the opportunity. They tend to not specialize and they, some of them probably do but the majority doesn’t and I think they could really, probably increase their client base if they actually thought about specializing.

KRZYS:                     I think so and I think what, what they can do instead of, you are, instead of going to do and then trying what they do at work have a really, really good initial consultation. The really, really good questions actually find out what’s, what’s happening? Why they have the shoulder problem? What do what do you do? So how do you do it? So show me that kind of sort of thing.

JANE:                         Well again another tip I, I would give Massage Therapists is that something I used to a little bit was you know, when you call someone after the therapy to check they’re okay. You might call next day, a few days later. Is today okay, how did it go? Especially with a new, a new client or patient. And you don’t want to do let’s say too much of that you don’t want to seem to be a nag or someone who’s trying to get work but it’s just an extra level of care. And we didn’t do telephone consultations but what I’ve learnt from doing them for these Occupational Health Companies and I know Physios have different views on this some of them think they’re rubbish if you can’t see the person you know, what is the point? Actually we are encouraged to listen to people and I’m kind of aware that you’re doing well listening now cause you, you’re asking the questions but when I’m doing the consultations you can’t do anything but listen to people. You have a series of questions, some of them are planned questions that you have to ask but some of them are broader to get an understanding of what’s happened to that person and patients love it because I can’t see that person but you build up a picture and I think if I could give it a tip to Therapist, I’d say that you don’t necessarily have to get all of the information from your clients on the day that you see them. You could get like some of that in advance and you could tell I’d like to check in with people and ask you to telephone consultation you’re providing additional service just to make sure because then when they come to your clinic they say “oh actually I forgot to tell you something I did actually have a car accident and I sprained my ankle. Is that relevant?” Or “I had I big bash, I forgot to tell you!” You normally, so you give them some time to ponder what they’ve told you. And I think it’s really valuable in their in their own homes, you know, it doesn’t cost you anything, you can make lots of notes, you get really good idea about that person before they then walking to your clinic.

KRYZS:                     How many times you working on someone shoulders and they are “owwh, owwh, by the way you. (Is this the case, I forgot to tell you it normally comes out) I have a shoulder injury like two weeks ago. (Yeah), like what!

JANE:                         I know people forget stuff don’t they? (Yeah) Especially if it’s something they live with all the time. You think how you could forget that you had your appendix out or your shoulder dislocated. But if it’s common to them and there’s other stuff going on, they generally do forget, don’t they? (Yeah) And also they, they don’t necessarily tell you things that they don’t know what’s important to tell you, you have to kind of guide them don’t you and tease certain things out. They don’t know what’s relevant and quite often something that happened you know a while ago could turn out to be incredibly relevant from a therapy point of view which they’ve just sort of discarded. (Dismissed)

KRZYS:                     So Physiotherapists, can you explain us you know how the session looks like so. How, how do they help clients? Well I’ll, I’ll give you the look the, the most common one because most, most Massage Therapist and Sports Massage Therapists will come across Musculoskeletal Physiotherapist. So that’s people who work in an outpatient clinic so they work for a hospital as a Physiotherapist and then a cubicle; there are lots of cubicles usually and patients are all lined up in a waiting room and the Receptionist calls the patient or the Physio calls the patient and they go in and it’s one after the other like a production line. You know, Mr. Smith, Joe Brown, Tracy, da, da, da in this one after the other. And the person comes in the Physio doesn’t know anything about them and they say “Oh it’s my shoulder or whatever” and they have to on that spot, they have to make a diagnosis and have to tell a patient what you think is wrong, what you think will help it, what treatment will help that and then you say I’m now going to do some of that treatment is that okay? You know get their consent or and obviously you’ve assessed them, you’d have their consent for that. So in that it’s a very, very intense when it’s that kind of environment, that’s what all Musculoskeletal Physios do in the N.H.S. They work in the National Health Service cause they have an awful lot of patients. But in other capacities and I won’t talk a lot about this because it’s, not necessarily the capacity that, Masseur, Massage Therapists will come across. You might work with people for a much longer period of time. So if you’re rehabilitating someone from a stroke you might see them every single day, they’re in a special stroke unit; you’re taking them to the gym not necessarily initially because they’re in bed you’re doing passive work on them initially and then you gradually change from doing passive work to much more active and functional to get them back to function. I mean and there’s a much more intensive sort of nature that goes on there. So you might see them every day if you’re lucky you know in a special clinic but in the Outpatient Department Musculoskeletal you might not see the person for another week or two weeks if they can be fitted in. So you have to rely an awful lot on the information you give them and exercise advice because one session hands of treatment, hands on treatment is very unlikely to resolve the problem and that’s actually what the evidence shows as well. It’s not that hands on treatment you do that resolves the issue it’s the, it’s the advice you give them and the support. So there are different capacities people working you know, in very different capacities and of course they could also work on a ward. So they work in a hospital on a very particular ward, on a ward where people have got respiratory problems and they do lots of breathing exercises or when people had operations to their bones in an orthopedic ward and they are rehabilitating and following fractures as it is that kind of thing. And the capacity you’ve talked about Krzys where they work with neurological conditions they could be in specific ward where everyone on ward has neurological and of course they could run which is something I did a lot of, they could run exercise sessions so hospitals frequently have exercise sessions just for people with lower limb conditions. So you, in whatever injuries, whether you’ve broken your A.C.L., you’ve had an A.C.L. repair in your knee, or you’ve had your knee replaced, or you’ve had ankle replacements or you fractured you’re foot bones or you had a very serious calf injury, you know like a Compartment Syndrome and you’re sent to an exercise class. Physio hospitals have those classes once a week so everyone does circuit type training you know what I mean? And it’s a way of helping people exercise that doesn’t require that Physio spending one to one with fourteen people you know but there’s value in exercising together for other reasons as well. So it’s very broad and of course mine is a bit different because of doing telephone consults.

KRZYS:                     So how Physiotherapists, what did, what sort of treatment, what sort of skill set they’re using in the treatments cause well part from while it’s using (yeah) so what you come to Physio, okay you have frozen shoulder so now we have to do exercise. Do they do any hands on work?

JANE:                         Well it’s entirely down to the Physiotherapist because what you do is on your training at is probably the same in Sports Remedial Massage, you are told to, you’re taught how to assess that person, person, that patient and have to make a diagnosis and to determine, what do they need at that stage of the condition? Do they need hands on treatment, does the evidence supports hands on treatment getting better, do they need to do an exercise themself because you’re trying to improve their strength or their function you know, or is it something you’ve got to do together is it a sort of passive active thing when you work together with them? Maybe they’ve not got quite enough strength but if you support them through a particular movement by taking their arm to the side abduction, they then can do on their own but they need some support. So there’s a combination or is it purely that they need advice you know there’s no hands on treatment that will actually be beneficial to them they need to be to follow this advice and that’s what will, will help them. So for example if they had a, they come to you and they’ve got a very swollen ankle, you could elevate their ankle and you could do some gentle sort of manual lymphatic draining type massage. Most Physios haven’t got time to do that in the N.H.S. but they could do that as a treatment. They could get a Cryo Cuff and for twenty minutes or fifteen minutes that person could be put in a Cryo Cuff to help reduce the swelling. They could provide them with a stretchy Tubi Grip type bandage you know to compress the area and reduce the swelling. They could get sent away with advice, about keep your foot elevated, keep it moving; they could show them the exercises. If they can’t do at that time because they’re too swollen about the kinds of range of movements exercises and explain the value of that. So it might be because they’re so swollen, they can’t really have too much hands on. Even if they reportedly got a stiff ankle it wouldn’t be appropriate to mobilize a stiff ankle at that time because there’s too much swelling. Do you see what I mean? So it’s dependent on the time the Physios got but also (the time, yeah) more important, yeah that, what does, wanting to see what the evidence support? What does your clinical experience support? What we’re not supposed to do is just do anything cause we know how to do it. ! You know we know how to do all sorts of sorry go on!

KRZYS:                     That, that’s a really good. That’s why I’m asking the question because many times well lots of my clients says “oh you know I’m just not going to the Physio again cause I went they didn’t have the time, they haven’t put his hands on me they just, I went there, they just check for few things, give me exercise, send me home. I don’t, no treatment, no nothing. (Yeah) They just, clients feel really disappointed, really not you know.

JANE:                         Yes, I couldn’t agree more and I think it’s a good opportunity to talk about why people have that impression. And I have again, I, I hear Physios talk about Massage Therapists and some of the bad things they’ve seen. So for example, Physiotherapists and I’ve seen myself, people covered in bruises or who have actually been injured by a Massage Therapist. They’ve been to a Masseur, you think how could you possibly be you know as a Masseur, Massage Therapist myself you know and Physio “How did that possibly happen?” People who have got for example I’ve seen someone had a Quadratus lumborum, bilateral Quadratus lumborum strain; they actually got pulled off of the horse by harnessed doing a circus exercise. They strained their Quadratus lumborum, they tore it both sides and a Sports Massage Therapist decided to do deep tissue massage the day after. (On the Quadratus lumborum) And they couldn’t, that person couldn’t walk. They had to go to hospital. The husband had to take them to A and E. Now I don’t think as a result of that all Massage Therapists injure people. I know that, that particular Massage Therapist was very ill informed, might not have been trained properly and was a one off situation and there are probably other Massage Therapists that also do that. But I don’t think that’s true of the profession and it’s the same with Physiotherapy. Most Massage Therapists whether they’re Sports Massage Therapists or regular Massage Therapists or we haven’t talked about Myofascial Release Therapist you know another element. They probably don’t see all the people who’ve had great treatments from Physios. (Inaudible 50:21) really great, they only see the ones where it’s not worked and it’s the same with, with Physio, we only see the ones that haven’t got a massage, you know what I mean? And one of the things I, I learned was that people need to be heard and sometimes if you don’t get rapport with your client, your patient, it doesn’t matter if the treatment you give is the right treatment, they don’t like you! You know they feel it’s wrong and should have had something else. So some can come to you and they very angry and they want you to massage their back and they want to do something and they’ll say “if you don’t massage the back it had no treatment.” If you sit him down and explain why it’s really important you don’t rush them because you could end up with bruises cause it’s an acute injury at that time it’s a very light message. Once you explain to them, you’ve gained rapport, they get that and they’re not the person that goes away and complains about you. Just, I mean that is one of my, my criticisms is I have met Physios and they just don’t bother with that rapport because they get burnt out. They just have so many patients one after in that system and some of them are great but they become physically fatigue themselves and if a patient hints at not wanting to follow exercise advice that experts give. If they even hint at the Physio loses interest, “well I’m not going to waste any more time with you because this is what you need to do!” If you’re saying you don’t want to do it why would I waste my time with you? You see what I mean? And the, the advantage of it doesn’t matter if you have much more

KRZYS:                     Yeah I do, you have, you have, you have a client, well you have clients which well they’re in pain, they want a quick fix. They’ve just been waiting you know, in the waiting room (Yeah) for like an hour or so and they you know now, so I, I see the you know difficult, difficult wait and it is quite important with any therapy to have a proper communication. (Yeah) And we are here and you we are here to teach our clients from you know because well we are different, everyone is different, everyone like you said have deep tissue massage with bruises. I, I had clients like that when they come back from this you know, things like that. And I always explain all about informing them, explaining them, why does this happened. The most important is why you do and do different things.

JANE:                         It’s the education, isn’t it? And again that’s a key part of Physiotherapy now is about education and there’s been a lot of debate about in the Physio press and in the Physio world about health care and how we have to be advocates for health care. So it’s really, we’re really encouraged to support people in becoming healthier. That doesn’t necessarily mean you have to do an awful lot more exercise but we have to support them in that, you know, and give advice and educate people and there’s a lot of bad education out there. So there’s a, there’s been a very nice, I think I’ve got a copy on Facebook there’s and nice little flyer, a little poster that the Charter Society of Physio in the U.K. put together about myth 53:11 busters it’s about back pain and it’s all about what the evidence actually shows about back pain. And then it’s just called myth busters and because the public has, don’t always have the right idea about it they don’t understand and there’s some wonderful resources out there for people. It’s just about us pointing you know in the right direction and again I’m still going on but it’s one reason I don’t work in the N.H.S. because I actually much prefer to have a bit longer. So all the private work I’ve done we’ve been really lucky to have least half an hour with someone and in the main and if someone comes off work we have a whole hour. But that’s in a private you know these people their companies are paying privately for their treatment and so that’s completely different and I that sits much better with me. I feel much less rushed I can really give time to the person and give them the opportunity to tell me at the onset what the, the problems are rather than thinking I must get my hands on them treat them because I got another patient you know, in five minutes. (Yeah) So that it just sits better with me.

KRZYS:                     So how, how Physiotherapists can cooperate with Massage Therapists and other way around?

JANE:                         Well again that’s, that’s a really interesting question Krzys because I was in Oslo last year and I met a lot of Chiropractors at the Chiropractors Conference. I was invited there just to talk about the research that the Royal College of Chiropractors are part funding and I heard a lot of other, other researchers talking and one of the things the Chiropractor Professionals are trying to do is to embrace the idea that they need to work with a wider group of paid professionals. And some of them are doing that very successfully in other countries. In the U.K. they are not integrated into our health system but they are in other in other countries. And I think that is something that the Physiotherapy profession could benefit from is, is broadening you know their links with other types of professionals and I know I class Massage Therapist as professionals. And I don’t know if that will happen in my lifetime but it certainly happens in the private sector so private companies or, or teams a Physiotherapists that work in private clinics, they recognize this value Sports Massage and Remedial Massage and Holistic Massage. They really value it and they don’t necessarily have to come from that background themselves but it’s because they that’s what their clients report as being beneficial. So you know there are lots of links there and I don’t know the mechanism by which it happens but you see a lot more adverts now for Massage Therapists being recruited into Physiotherapy Clinics, Private Clinics. If you go on some of the websites, the common jobs search websites all the time I see adverts for from Chiropractic Clinics, Physio Clinics, Osteopathic Clinics wanting Massage Therapist of various kinds to go and work with them.

KRZYS:                     That’s one of my first jobs; I was working in a Chiropractor Clinic.

JANE:                         I bet you learn loads didn’t you for just sharing the information.

KRZYS:                     I learn loads. Lots of, that was, that was I think the really good part of like cooperating with different, different with Therapists different approaches which gives you a better idea for well, first of all what they do and how they’re helping and also give you the idea for you to well the knowledge which you gain, it helps you in your treatments as well.

JANE:                         Yeah and even if it was in within my capacity what I would do is I would invite the Massage Therapists to come see what Physios do and obviously the problem with that is you need permission of the patients and I’m not in a capacity to do be able to do that because I’ve been in the corporate sector. In the business world that would be too difficult to get that permission because I’d have to get in permission from their employers as well and the company for whom I work. But I think it would, there are areas where it is possible and there are private clinics where it is possible so that those Massage Therapists can conceive if they’re not going to work with that clinic, they can see what the Physios, Chiropractors, Osteopaths, what they do. But likewise I think it would be marvelous for Physiotherapist to see what Massage Therapists, Sports Massage Therapists, Sports Remedial Therapists do have skills they are and some of them do that simply by going for massage. But I think that it would really, you know this kind of things grow out and if you branch and start talking to Massage Therapists maybe Physios will start listening to the podcast and hearing the experiences all of all the wonderful you know, Massage Therapists are out there and how they work. And of course I’m really conscious that this is only, I’m only representing one Physio, which is me you know and what I do and other Physios that you interview, give you, could give you completely different information and it would be really useful to the Physios who are working in the N.H.S. and that’s the majority. Or in different capacities and likewise Massage Therapist so that we can really share this information and as you say a Podcast for all Therapists. It’s not for one particular discipline even though predominately I know you want to support student Massage Therapists particularly.

KRZYS:                     So that, that, and that’s what’s Busy Hive is all about. Bringing all of the you know journeys inspiration ideas from lots of different people cause every, everyone had a different idea but you know we’re all trying to help and bring some you know everyone has a different, different aspect of knowledge we can always learn from. And as well as Busy Hive where the first idea was to open up to everyone else but I thought you know, let’s just start with something one. So that’s why we kind of start with something what we, we know the best at myself as a Massage Therapist. But Busy Hive is you know directed to be open to all sorts you know Therapists from the Osteos, Physios, Chiros and all the med; you know health, health professionals.

JANE:                         Yeah well I can see developing a sort of a library and just like libraries, you could categorize you know your podcast can’t you as to what the mind the conversation is so you will then get people searching for those particularly from, from different professions and honing into the ones that are really relevant to them.

KRZYS:                     Exactly so if we can now we talk about of all the different professions so how Physiotherapy compares and differs like between Osteopathy and Chiropractic?

JANE:                         Oh like I can’t answer that question I’m afraid. I, I did a survey recently just as a very, very small part of the PhD. and we asked Chiropractors and Physios and Osteopaths and Sports Therapists about the use of Postural Assessment because one of the things we’re developing at the University is an app that can be used in the clinic just to assess posture and record posture and posture change. And so we thought well it needs to measure what these clinicians are saying that they measure you know not just what I think it should include. And what’s been really interesting is that the Chiropractors predominantly use Postura1 Assessment so that’s one big difference whereas some of the operations actually don’t and I was really surprised by that because I thought they would use it as much as Chiropractors but they don’t. And that’s one of the differences and again I’m afraid you don’t need to ask the Chiropractors and the Osteopaths about themselves because we’re so diverse (but they’re not but we will) (Laughter) Yeah, yeah! They’re just, they’re so diverse I can tell you, I can tell you on I could probably look up on paper what the differences are supposed to be. And I’ve often asked people well why did you choose to train as an Osteopath as opposed to a Physio? And then often give me, “it’s not even to do with the training it’s to do with if it fits in with their lifestyle you know that kind of thing? It’s not to do with the, the philosophy behind the, the approach.

KRZYS:                     Yes! So can you tell us when someone should see Physiotherapist?

JANE:                         That’s a good question! When should they see a Physiotherapist? Well, well in my line of work it’s if you have a musculoskeletal problem. So that could be very broad ranging it could be you get an aching back because you’re sitting down and you notice it whenever you’re driving, it could be you’ve had an injury and you’ve got problems since having that injury, it could be something that’s been going on for a long time like when you’re typing you get wrist pain or you just noticed you got clicking wrist and it’s hurting you or I mean it could be anything to do it with, with, with your muscles and it’s causing a problem. But also you know, Physios give a lot advice on exercise and health and that kind of thing. It could be that you simply want to be pointed in the right direction; you want to lose weight or you want to get fitter you know that kind of thing. So there’s no one who doesn’t need Physio and I was just a joke to people who doesn’t need massage. I mean everybody needs massages. Can you think of someone who doesn’t need Massage? (no) you know and, and Physio is all about helping people to help themselves and support them to become more comfortable in their physicality, more comfortable in their body and that could involve just giving advice but it could involve you actually treating them. So it’s about helping people and, and so I would say anyone who doesn’t feel comfortable in their body, the Physio could play a part there.

KRZYS:                     That’s the, that’s the could do always way that’s what I do because I’m not you know I’m very comfortable with some of the exercises I do and some of the assessment but I’m not an expert in this one so some of the things I can do what I don’t think, well I just can’t. Can’t help in this kind of ways, I always refer him to Physiotherapy because well they have a better knowledge of this and that’s fine as well. So don’t be you know, cause I think a lot of Therapists say, “Oh I’m not going to send my client to anyone else cause he’s going to steal them!” Is not about this is just about actually looking for you know, your expert in one thing but not in everything so just allow yourself to…

JANE:                         Yeah, I couldn’t agree more Krzys because I’ve referred lots of people in the past to Massage Therapists and I’ve done a lot and because I, I do a lot you know, I’ve done a lot Massage myself as a Physiotherapist but there’ve been times when I can’t because there’s not enough time or they need a special type of Massage or somebody that can spend longer with them or, or they actually done what I would believe would be a series of treatments. You know they have a chronic kind of stiff muscle or something that I think they’d really need much more, more input from a Massage Therapist for. And I think it’s really important to try and develop those links isn’t it? So for Massage Therapists to develop links with Physios that they do trust and that they do think are beneficial and my experience is not that people poach other people’s clients at all that’s not been my experience and I can see why people might be fearful of that but you know, if you, if you’re having people attracted to Physio Clinic and people are attracted to a Massage Clinic, there, there is more in that! Isn’t it than working solely on your own? You, you end up getting you know, if you think about six degrees of separation, all of their friends and friends of friends, do you know what I mean? So someone that ends up staying with a Physiotherapist, that person might actually have three friends that require a massage, that will come back to you and like you know, and the opposite is true.

KRZYS:                     I think you are and you are being seen as a better expert because actually you know other experts which actually you know is in the benefit of the person who we’re treating.

JANE:                         Yeah that’s absolutely right because from the patient’s point of view, the same with Physios is with massage, it’s about the patient. Everything is about the patient! And getting the best outcome for that patient or clients whatever the term you want to use. It’s about getting him the best outcome and so you have a, Physios have a duty to refer them to other people if they feel those other people will give you a better service or get a better outcome. You know and I think that in the N.H.S. you have the opportunity because you can refer them for if they do need an X-ray, they do need a scan or they do need to go to a Podiatrist or they need to see a Specialist or Spine Consultant, you have that network within the N.H.S. and some private clinics have that I know as well. And I think Massage Therapists just a need to develop that. They desperately need to develop that they feel that they trust individuals that they trust have those skills.

KRZYS:                     And I think that you know that’s what’s really powerful to have a network of you know, people you know, in the Therapists around you which actually support, support of each other.

JANE:                         Yeah!

KRZYS:                     So Jane you really have shared a lot with us today and I really, really appreciate that! So the next question I have for you is because lots of our listeners are either just starting out or maybe they’ve just been business for a while but it’s struggling us, they work on the building their own business. So the next question is, “If you woke up tomorrow morning but you still possess all of the experience and knowledge you currently have, but your business, your books, your PhDs was completely disappeared and forcing you to start from scratch, what would you do?

JANE:                         Owwh! What would I do? I would, I’d follow my passion for sure! So things that I know I’m passionate about I would just pursue. So I wouldn’t try and get things in a sort of this way. I would give up things sooner that are working and I know that might seem a bit alien that we should you know keep banging away at something and if it’s, it’s to try and get it to work. I think you need to follow, really follow your heart. I, I, I, I, one of my degrees is actually in Management and Business and you know Management, Accounts and stuff like that, it’s in Economics. And I followed that model of Business for a long time and it didn’t work for me and when I started to follow a more, just followed my passion really, whether it felt that it was right for a business point of view but my heart felt right, I got much better results. So that’s what I would do I wouldn’t try and fit into what a Massage Therapists or Physios is supposed to be, I think that’s one of the things that a lot of Massage Therapists suffer from initially. They should be a certain way, they should have a certain room, they should have a certain smelling candle, they should do a certain type of thing. If they’ve done Sports Massage they should do work with sports people and as you know Sports Massage is very broad, you don’t have to work with sports people. You know you sort of feel that you want to fit yourself into what is perceived for that role and you don’t have to. So I would do that differently I would just, I would give on the things aren’t working. I would, I would say, I think this is, this is a quote by someone called Abraham Hicks, but I would “turn my canoe downstream I wouldn’t try to paddle upstream” I’d just turn downstream and go with the flow. And that’s what happened with the Physiotherapy, was that when I stopped, come knocking on the doors trying to get in to be a Physio and I just thought well okay my bad things but then that door open straight away. You know and it’s about effort I would try and do things with less effort if they weren’t, if they weren’t enjoyable, I’d turn away from those and just keep my passion on the things I love for not I you know focus on those!

KRZYS:                     So be different, follow your passion and be happy,

JANE:                         Yeah, be, be, be authentic to yourself!

KRZYS:                     Be authentic to yourself and you know, don’t, don’t try to follow. Just be different, which is because that’s still fine because it’s you.

JANE:                         Yeah and it’s okay if not everyone agrees. Not everyone’s going to necessarily like the books that I wrote but I love them and other people love them and I want to write more like that. So if you love doing something you don’t have to worry about whether you have the right kind of clients you know, I think you’ll attract the clients to you that are right for you.

KRZYS:                     And now I’m going to follow what you just said. So that, are there any more books on the horizon?

JANE:                         Well, there are actually! The, the, we start off with Soft Tissue Release, that was actually the first book, that particular technique and then I got asked to write Deep Tissue Massage, so the sort of specific skills books I think I’ve kind of for me the information I want to impart I’ve imparted it. But then we did Postural Assessment and then Postural Correction cause they all kept asking about postural correction and then another book that I did was, Therapeutic Stretching, so that the use of stretching for people who had injuries or a problems. You know when, when do you stretch not just because you’ve been to the gym you think you need to stretch out at once. And then the last one that was published was called, The Big Back Book and it’s all about tips and tricks on the spine and the Thorax and the lumbar spine. It’s actually written for Massage Therapists predominantly on tips I picked up. And so there’s going to be others in that series. So in the tips and tricks series, the publishers are really 1:10:19 to me doing the lower limb so they’ll be the lower limb and they will be an upper limb. But they’re really big, they’re small in, they look small in size but they’re actually really large. I’ve got about four hundred pages even though they look quite small on the, on the internet. So there’s those coming up I have got others that I’d like to suggest to the, the publishers of the other book, The Human Kinetics Series, The Hands On Guide series and hoping to collaborate with a few people to put things together because I’m quite into collaboration and how can we work together.   So I know other people in the industry that got really interesting skills mixed with mine and I think we could do some great books on specific topics together. Just the question of getting this PhD out the way (Laughter) Small, small things get done over the next sixteen months but I’m raring to go I’ve got lots of lots of material already.

KRZYS:                     So definitely now collaboration with us, we know, we really, really willing to really, really help you with, with some of that. So if you have any, any new books, anything you want to share, let us know and you will help you to promote that.

JANE:                         Thank you, thank you!

KRZYS:                     So exactly this way, the next part is all about you. So here we’ll have a moment to promotion of our, our guest. Either is your courses, books, practice, anything you would like to share, we will give you a little bit of the freestyle time; so here you go.

JANE:                         Well I, I’d like to share, it’s just one of my Facebook pages and well two, I’ve got two Facebook pages that are kind of about me. One, one is about the books that I’ve written, and it’s just called Jane Johnson Books and you can go in there and you can see the books and they get published in different languages as well. But another one you might find more interesting is Jane Johnson Videos. So I’ve got a, a page where people have asked me questions. They’re all from Massage Therapists, and they ask me questions about all sorts of things and it could be how they rehabilitate someone or secure injury, how you treat back pain, all sorts of stuff. And so I just made little tiny home videos and they’re deliberately very gentle, me in a fluffy jumper sitting at home sort of it giving my experience which I hope will help people. And I’m not suggesting these are the only way to treat those things but if you want and feel free to look at those videos, there’s a quite a lot of them, I think is about thirty two, they’re quite short about maximum length is five to ten minutes long I think. If you look at the Jane Johnson Videos page and if you want to pose questions to me, then I will create more videos which are just these just little tiny homemade replies really just so that you can see me replying to your question. Feel free to do that and I’m all about sharing information so that’s what I really hope people do. I do have some courses coming up; one is Quantum Metta in July, there’s that one coming up and that’s all about the Thorax and I think we’ve got one in November about Postural Assessment again with Quantum Metta in London in November this year. So if you want to see me in person again, you know, get some of these hands on skills then feel free and also feel free to suggest other, other workshops that you would like. I’m all for trying to support people the best way I can and..

KRZYS:                     So if someone would like to get you on, on you know, creative workshops so you can come and show us the stuff, How, how can approach you, how, yeah how that works?

JANE:                         Well, they, they can either, they can either just find me on my general Facebook page and it’s Jane Johnson and I live in Sunderland in Northern England. I moved from London five years ago so you can contact me there, or they can, they can go on to the Jane Johnson Books or Jane Johnson Videos and just you know and just send me a message or they can e-mail me So that’s just J A N E and they can e-mail me that way. And usually are I put on workshops that are kind of hosted by the company, so the one coming up is for Quantum Metta in London. So they’d sort of get everyone together and we together come up with an idea for what most of the Therapists coming on workshop will like. And I don’t have a venue, I don’t do any of that kind of thing anymore but I kind of, I get to go all over the country. I tend to get asked to go all over the place.

KRZYS:                     Which is nice?

JANE:                         Yeah, which is lovely and I love meeting Therapists because I learn all the time from Therapists and I always pick up tips from them and I keep notes about those tips so that I can share those with other people.

KRZYS:                     That’s amazing. Thank you.

JANE;                         You’re welcome.

KRZYS:                     So the, the next part is our game which we came up with and it’s called ‘Tag a Guest’. So we ask our guests you know, ‘who do I admire and why, and can you help us to get a recommendation for the upcoming interview with me?”

JANE:                         Well there are two Therapists I particularly admire. There are, there are loads but I mean I just don’t know where or how to begin because there are just so many that I’ve met and I really admire and I respect them for their work. But the two that I most admire Doreen Uzice and Dympna O’Brien and they are the ladies that run Quantum Metta in London. And what I admire about them is the way they deal with people. They are humble and they are so giving of their, of their skills and their time and we have similar mindsets. They, they’re optimists I think they seem to believe anything’s possible so I have that sort of, I feel connected to them in that way. This probably isn’t right forum to talk about it but we, I think we follow a similar philosophy. We, we have a very similar philosophy that we follow and I think they’re very caring as people and you could say that about a lot of Therapists but I think they, they genuinely care about the students who come to their courses. And they’re not prescriptive you know, they, they very rarely say you something has to be done a certain way. They’re open to opportunities and I really like that about them and I think that their, their gentleness and humbleness is an enormous asset and something I aspire to.

KRZYS:                     Perfect, thank you! This is really, really great and so thank you for joining me here today Jane. You got us really big and great advice and inspiration. So let’s finish this show with the last piece of advice for Busy Hive listeners and then and then we will say goodbye. So if you had to just the one thing for our listeners to take out of this episode, what would it be?

JANE:                         Anything’s possible!

KRZYS:                     And that’s just the best fit what you can say. So how can you connect, you already mentioned but can you just, how can we connect with the online?

JANE:                         So online you can, you can go on to Facebook I don’t have a website address deliberately because I don’t have the time to sort of manage that. So you can go online to Jane Johnson Videos or Jane Johnson Books and you see as I’m on my Facebook pages you can contact me by e-mail, if you just want to ask him questions or anything really and I, and I usually respond really pretty quickly within a couple of days.

KRZYS:                     So thank you, thank you very much for joining me here at Busy Hive Podcast. And if you our listeners are interested in learning bit more about Jane books, you can go to and we will have all the information in our show notes. So Jane it’s a pleasure to have you on the show today and hopefully we will chat a very, very soon and I can just finish with one, anything is possible. Bye for now!

JANE:                         Thank you Krzys. Bye, bye!